First Interview Sottens 13.8.71.

 “Glad to meet you”. Gil Caraman

 Hello. As planned, as promised, we will meet today with Mr. Martin Muller, Professor of Ontology, of Swiss nationality, currently teaching in San Diego, California.

I discovered Mr. Martin Muller somewhere near the Rochers de Naye where he was spending a few days with his family in a remote chalet. Only after a walk in the forest, with my tape recorder on my shoulder, that I met Professor Muller and that we were able to talk about ontology. Ontology, this science of being, is a slice of the philosophy to which Mr. Martin Muller has devoted himself and of which he is preparing a work entitled; Introduction to ontology. (Introduction à l’Ontologie). Do not look for it yet at your bookstore, this work is not yet published; it is, as they say, in reading. For those interested in the subject, let’s immediately say that this program will have a sequel, that we will find the professor next Friday.

Mr. Martin Muller, you are a professor of ontology in the U.S.A. What is ontology?

Ontology, literally, is the science of being and we approach the field of ontology or science of being from a particular angle, which is what could be called practical ontology.We can make, from the psychological point of view, a difference, a differentiation which helps to situate it, in the sense that, let’s say, for example that behaviorism mainly deals with the relationship of the person with society, with his environment, G.C. Yes. M.M. whereas ontology, in the practical sense of the term, will mainly deal with the relationship of deep identity with the person. Let’s say, in both cases, the person would be a kind of midpoint, and in the usual psychological sense, the work goes from the person outwards, or outwards towards the person, in this kind of relationship, so that in the ontological domain, weleave the entourage side and we work mainly on the relationship between the deep identity and the person.

So, does this relate to psychology?

This is basically in the realm of psychology, orLess, should be, in the etymological sense of psychology: science of the soul, which implies a deep identity. In practice, this is often forgotten. In practice too, one is often cornered, let’s say, by time. You need an immediate effect; we act on the most urgent and we also act on the most visible.But experience has often, always shown that when a person is uneasy in itself, it is not so much the relationship with the outside that is in question, although this relationship may be damaged, but it is mainly precisely because of this lack of connection with its own deep identity which is perceived in the unconscious areas, but not in the conscious areas. We have the vague, diffuse feeling that something is wrong, and we can’t put our finger on it.  And in the ontological domain precisely, he works on this point.

 And you perhaps manage to treat, then, a few people, a few people?

Personally, I treat students from time to time, but I do not systematically do therapy; it is not my domain.

Of course. Do you believe, as in almost all religions, that there is a trinity in the individual?

There is basically not only a trinity, also a duality. And we approach, let’s say in the technical sense, the Trinitarian aspect in the following way: There are three great principal currents, three kinds of energy, one of which gives the directing or creative we do, it gives, therefore, one could say, the initial impetus and the direction. It can be associated on a personal level with what is called a will. We will then speak of a basic will. The second current would be the current that creates a shape around this pulse. This form by itself is still abstract in relation to the expressed form; so, it’s a plan. For example, in the idea of ​​a house, the architect; the architect who makes a house; the second function would be to make the plan. It is a form which is not inhabitable, but it is a form which represents what will follow. And the third function aims to energize this form, which is not yet usable, so that it expresses itself on the usable level and thereby becomes the house. In our example of an architect, for example, the contractor must transform theHabitable house plan. And symbolically, this entrepreneur will fulfill the third of these functions. The architect will fulfill the second of the functions, in the sense that he gives this first form around the guiding impulse given by the person who wants his house.

 In short, the three points of the trinity of the individual complete.

They basically act together, even simultaneously. I say simultaneously, in the sense that when we go into the details, we find that to every directing impulse there immediately corresponds a formation, then, let us say, an expression.

You spoke of quality, earlier, and of the trinity; before speaking of trinity, you spoke of duality. So, both forms exist for you?

In duality, we have, let’s say as the simplest reference, the polar notion: the positive current and the negative current. On the psychological level, we can use an old symbolism and make a connection between positive current and spirit, negative current, nature. The role of the negative current in this case is to support the impulse of the spirit current. It is obvious that one cannot obtain results with only one pole; both are necessary. If, for example, someone wants to develop negatively only, there will be no effect. If he wants to develop positively only, there will be no effect either.

For you, is nature the negative point?

Nature, for me, is the negative pole.

Can we then think that it is the other side that needs to be developed?

No, we cannot express it exactly that way, in the sense that it is necessary, as we have just seen, both poles are necessarily necessary for an action. But there is a point to raise all the same, it is that as intelligence, acts mainly by the positive polarity. Therefore, it is necessary to have what could be called a slight positive dominant. If we look at the energy radiation of a person, we can manage to see, it is perfectly feasible, the degree of balance of the polarites, if there is more negative than positive, if the polarities are balanced, if there is more positive than negative. The human structure can be much more negative than positive; it can sometimes also be more positive than negative. It makes considerable differences from a psychological point of view.

You talk about seeing, perceiving the radiance of a person.

We can learn to see it, it is a question of development; pay attention to the issue; having someone show you how it can feel. But it is perfectly doable.

Only by the morphology and appearance of the person in front of you?

No, radiation… We can, at the start, rely on certain morphological aspects, if we want, but afterwards, we learn to perceive the energy field directly.

Without any effort?

Effortless. He can perceive himself in different ways: either visually or through empathy, that is to say a property that anyone can develop, to feel the other. In this sense, it can be done either by seeing and feeling it. The sight can give a datum, the feeling can confirm. I mean by this that, having these two possibilities, one can verify, one can control one by the other.

Yes.

It is perfectly possible, and it is part of the training, to look at someone to see this play of these currents and close your eyes and learn to feel the play of the currents. Possibly, the opposite: not seeing the person, but feeling them, first, eyes closed; then watch. One is amazed at how closely the two things correspond.

Each individual has this potential to…

Each individual has this potential, regardless of their development. It is understood that, say, the more developed he is spiritually speaking, the further the perception goes. A beginningof perception exists in any degree. Current is a term that, perhaps, is not quite clean, but it is very practical and simply appliesto energy games. When energy radiates, it gives what are called currents.

And a man has several energies and several currents?

Let’s say, in the man plays, I would say an almost unbelievable amount of different kinds of energies. When we talk about the magnetism or the electricity of a person, let’s say these two very general ways and I do not mean simplistic, but it is simply a beginning of perception. In reality, you have currents on the affective level, you have currents on the sensory level, currents on the intellectual level, you have currents on the soul level, you have personal currents, ultra-personal currents.

How do you feel all these currents and how do you manage to classify them?

Learning to feel them simply involves a systematic attention. As we have just seen, we place a person in front of us. Take, for example, positive and negative current. If we look at a person in front of us and we look in the eyes, at eye level. There will be an impression at that time. If we imagine from the height of the eyes a radiance, one will feel something in one’s own head or around one which tends to rise, looking at this person. This implies the presence of positive radiation.Conversely, when we look at this person. and that one feels in oneself, around oneself, or that one sees on this person something which tends to descend, this feeling of being pulled down implies the presence of negative current; because the negative current rises and one is drawn towards the source, therefore towards the bottom of the person and when one looks towards the eyes. So, the center of gravity is below the eyes or above the eyes. Above implies the positive; below implies the negative. And there can be a bit more or less complex of both situations; because you can feel, for example, that both exist, both play but at a certain moment one is stronger than the other. There is an unstable equilibrium of the two polarities.

Most of the time there is simply more of one than the other. There can be much more than one, much more positive than negative; or much more negative than positive. But if the presence of the negative current becomes too great, we are dealing with a person who does not really control himself. Instead of driving her life, she’s pulled into her life, usuallyby its own perceptions or sensory needs.

I may want to say something dreadful, Monsieur Muller; but is it not only, for example, a science of intuition or a higher development of an intuition that we ourselves have?

I don’t see what’s awful about it; I would even say, it is fundamentally correct, in the sense that intuition is simply what is around the conscious. Let’s say, the massive use of the conscious occupies a kind of central core and when one moves away from the core, the perception of the surrounding world is more and more precisely intuitive. And in this sense, when one works in this, the attention is mainly in the intuitive domain until habituation, and when there is habituation, finally there is establishment of the conscious in this zone there, that is to say that the intuitive zone finally becomes a conscious zone, therefore as objective as the rest of the conscious.

I repeat to you that today we meet Professor Martin Muller, of Swiss nationality, currently teaching ontology in San Diego, California. On ontology again, an esoteric science, Professor Martin Muller is preparing a book, currently being read, entitled: Introduction to Ontology. But it’s only next week that we’ll talk about this book, since this show, I told you, will have a sequel. One more detail, Mr. Martin Muller is trained as a psychologist.We talked about trinity or duality. We didn’t talk about consciousness. Since we are in the conscious, where do you place the conscious in this trinity?

Basically, I would say the conscious is made up of two “scients”, this pun can be done in French, a positive scientist and a negative scientist. The conscious is a function which results from a structuring of two structures, one positive, the other negative; and when they meet, there is an interaction, and this interaction gives consciousness. So that we make a difference; instead of taking the global unconscious generally as in psychology or. let us say the global sub-conscious of psychology which contains the two positive and negative aspects, we define in a pictorial way the conscious as being the point of junction of two structures. If there is a point of junction of a current which rises and of a current which descends, we will say that under the conscious, therefore sub-conscious, there is this “scient” part which is mainly of negative structure, the positive does not yet descend that far. So, it is related to the natural aspect of man, which would bring him closer to animal functions, and so on.

Conversely, we have the part where the positive structure has not yet arrived and there we have this “scient” aspect which belongs to what we could call the spirit, therefore the positive structure, the positive scientist.

You, what you are trying to do, is to achieve the positive in this part?

We work almost mainly with the positive structures, but not mainly in the supra-conscious only. Naturally, the role of the superconscious is considerable, it is obvious; but the development of the conscious being symmetrical, that is to say that if the positive structuring goes down a notch, the positive structuring also goes up a notch; therefore one does not reach an enlargement with the help of the conscious. And, for example, if you take spiritual development in its general conception, we find that we are always looking for awareness; but sensitization means that the natural, negative structure learns to respond to higher frequencies, and in this sense, it tends to rise up a notch. In this sense, going up a notch means that the zones which, before, were essentially intuitive or vaguely intuitive or only sensed, and not felt and even less felt, these zones being supported by a negative structure now sensitized, therefore capable of to answer, will become conscious. Which is proven in practice, let’s say. Conversely, when the positive structure develops enough force to descend into the negative structures to which it did not yet have access, in this case, force is needed precisely, we. Obtains a new conscious state. And to give a picture of the kind of conscious state that can be achieved, well, one has to realize, or simply realize, that our perception of the physical is not physical. We always perceive something through a nervous current, a sensory current, but we cannot say that we feel the physical at the physical level. Let me explain. If, let’s say something close, an organ inside his body, one feels an organ to the extent that it is not functioning well, that is, a nerve is affected, and the signal comes to the brain and the brain becomes aware that something is wrong somewhere. So, it’s again through what can be called the nervous fluid. If the perception descends by one level, that is to say that the positive structure has gained a level in the negative structure, one manages to feel the organ as the organ feels itself.It’s an expression that seems quite curious and which, however, is real.

We manage to, almost project ourselves.I

It is not a projection; it is, again, a form of empathy, one could say empathy, sympathy or compassion. We feel the other, but here, instead of feeling the other, we feel the other organ. And one can feel it either on the other person, or by resonance on his own person, the same organ, that is to say, resembles the condition of the other organ by his own organ.

Is it from Yung’s theories that this whole theory of consciousness develops or is Yung set aside?

Honestly speaking, I do not rely on any psychological knowledge for the notion of structuring.

How, then, did you discover it?

It is the result of experiences on the one hand, my second experience, and on the other hand, it must be said, it is all the same the result also of a connection with what we usually call the inner worlds or the spiritual worlds. So, there are data that, let’s say, we access data that we generally don’t have in our usual consciousness.

Mr. Martin Muller, can we know how, for example, you came to discover this structuring. Is it by a certain loneliness, is it by, au contraire, by an activity, a research in this direction?

Practically, there is a conscious search, but let’s say it started when I became aware of the presence, precisely of the trinitarian current and of the centers of consciousness in man. There are three centers in the head, three centers in the thorax, three centers in the pelvis; and what I call centers of consciousness are centers which function according to the positive polarity.

 But these centers of consciousness, did you discover them through books or did you find them yourself?

No, I found them. Again, it’s hard to say; that is to say, having access to certain knowledge that some call esoteric, I do not like the word very much, in the sense that when you approach it naturally, it is as natural as anyone what else, the extension of that on the personal level allowed me to discover the centers of consciousness, through the play of three fundamental currents precisely in the trinitarian sense.

Have you checked these points of consciousness by or other sciences, I am thinking either of acupuncture, or, let’s say, of certain methods, I don’t know, as certain doctors had discovered, like Paracelsus, for example ?

No, not in that sense. I checked simply by practice, rather from the practical psychological angle. Through teaching, the development of the centers of consciousness involves bringing attention to certain points in certain ways, and practice has shown that it does indeed play, and it plays regularly in the same way. So there is a systematic in it and little by little, the systematic could be formulated.

 And, say, your wording is correct? Don’t you think you’re still on a field of experience?

No, the formulation is perfectly accurate, in the sense that, in the meantime, perception has also developed, and we are simply faced with a fact.

 Now, Mr. Muller, you have students. This means that precisely these points of consciousness. You were able to point them out to others, develop them in others. M.M.  Yes. G.C. Is it you or are they the ones developing themselves?

It is they themselves who are developing. I am there simply to check that the work is done correctly; because, at the beginning of course, one constantly mixes the negative current and the positive current, and one cannot analytically obtain a clear and clean aspect of a certain quality if one is not able to separate these two aspects. And the pupil by himself does not always have, at least he does not have at the beginning, the necessary references which allow him, the necessary experience which allows him to separate the positive from the negative. And in this meaning, if there is someone who can control, it makes the job a lot easier.  In practice, no, you have to bring in something else, I work essentially by what one can call currents (these currents are simply energies), I work by certain types of energies; i.e. I always say to my students: do not get attached to what I say, but when I say something, a current is given, and it is this which does the work. In the current state of teaching, I use different methods. One is naturally speaking, explaining these things and giving these currents. And in the aspect of giving these currents, there is a particular system that is used: it is to make a current vibrate and to let the others enter into resonance with this current, which leaves them the total freedom to accept or to  refuse. Because there can be psychological situations where a part of the person does not accept a current; for example, you have the currents, the directing current which gives the directional impulse, is an extremely definite current. Now, there are people who absolutely do not want to be defined, and in this sense they refuse. And in the system used, the current is simply vibrated and if the person is sincere and really wants to develop, he resonates with the current and, little by little, he feels. If she isn’t, if there’s any reason in her that opposes the current, she won’t feel anything. In this sense, it is entirely free.

And if she senses the current, she can, say, channel it?

Little by little, it is defined and little by little, she can channel it, she can make it play by herself, by herself. Moreover, there are exercises that are proposed for this purpose and the student trains at home, systematically.

But don’t we have to wait for a certain degree of maturity to achieve this result? Is that, I think, for the Youth it is possible? Can a young student, a young pupil do it?

A young student can do it. it is obvious that for a clear and defined result, a clear and defined maturity is also needed. But before arriving at clear and defined maturity, there is all the preparation. And starting relatively young, with these students who are barely twenty years old, is going very well.

And what do you call maturity? what is needed for it to be defined?

Well, to take an example in our current society where it is chronically admitted that responsibilities are no longer accepted, a sign of maturity is the ability to accept the responsibility. Because when you generate a current, you are responsible for the current; and spiritually, you are absolutely responsible. And when you learn to handle more definite, stronger, higher volume currents, let’s say there is more action, you are absolutely held accountable for what you do. And this responsibility must be conscious.

 Isn’t that dangerous sometimes for some people maybe, I don’t know, unbalanced or immature?

If the person is unbalanced, the current is usually too negative, too side nature, and the positive current does not play. It can happen that a person is unbalancedin the sense of ‘excessive’ and in this case we do not accept it. As soon as we see that there is, for example, the way of working of a person becomes harmful because it did not understand how to do it and that they do it in a way that can be harmful, well, we explain it to them, and we find out why it is like that, And if the person is not accessible to that, simply we say to him; “It’s dangerous for you, you shouldn’t do it.”

 Do you choose your, your student to look at him precisely with his sense and his magnetic aura?

I do always, currently in the United States, I see allways a future student first in private, precisely to see what is wrong and sometimes I have to refuse.

For all those who have missed it and for all Friday morning devotees, I repeat that this show will have a sequel next Friday at the same time. We will find Professor Martin Muller, Swiss by nationality, currently teaching ontology in San Diego, California.Next Friday, we will go even further in the conversation; we will mainly talk about this work currently being read “Introduction to Ontology” of which Mr. Marrtin Muller is the author.It was Gil Caraman who introduced you to ‘Happy to meet you’. Goodbye.

Second Interview Sottens 13/15/1971

it would perhaps be good to make a brief summary for all those which were not listening last Friday MM has a training of psychologist, he seeks by the way of ontology to develop the conscious of the individual. For this he uses currents; positive and negative currents. The positive current is the spirit, the negative the natural state. He recognizes a trinity plus a duality in an individual and claims to be able to perceive the magnetic aura of a person, this by simple training.

The rest of our conversation in a few moments.

You said that in the United States, Mr. Muller the science of currents was very widespread.

This is the thing that struck me there, I contacted circles of psychologists.

I had been hit, precisely from the interest they have for the whole energetic side and that goes from the energies, let’s just say physiological of the body, to the spiritual energies, the different auras, positive-negative, exetera, they are working very seriously on that.

And they now accept this science.

So, there is no difficulty such that, for example, when I present what I am doing or like that, there is an almost immediate understanding, there is no problem in the sense of refusal, it does not exist, absolutely not. The notion of currents is known. The notion of energies is known. I don’t know how it is academically at all. For example, I have a student who already has some practice behind her, who is doing a doctorate. She says it’s very difficult for me to do this PhD, because I have to study things that I don’t believe in.The development is absolutely bubbling, I could say, in the sense that new things come out all the time, some are good the others are not so good but there is an incessant work towards the new, towards an opening in search of other means.

So, you can make me believe that this is a new form of knowing or understanding and that our classical academic knowledge has nothing to do with it, it is no longer interesting.

I would not say that they are not interesting, it is the result of observations which are always valid, only the field of observation extends, and the needs also expand, and we realize that solving a problem with the few data that we have is absolutely not enough. And for that, we try to give ourselves new dimensions. The situation is much the same as in mathematics where we are faced with certain problems that we cannot solve. If we bring in a new dimension, one could almost say without creating a new dimension, and from there, we can find the solution; here, it’s the same thing. We are forced to access new dimensions.

So is it perhaps a new form of religion since we are looking for a solution in a different dimension.

We arrive in a domain, one would almost say psychology from the point of view of Philosophy is a new form of religion. Not in the clerical sense of the word, but in the technical sense of the term because there is in reality no clear difference, say, border between advanced psychology and advanced spirituality.Spirituality is simply an area of ​​advanced psychology.

So, everything comes together then if I understand correctly.

In this area, it is absolutely consistent.

Then, the classical religions, they are, let’s say distant from this way of thinking of seeing.

It is not the religions that are distant, It is the understanding of the people who apply these religions that are distant. Because there are psychology teachings in the Vedantas that exist for thousands of years that are still valid. There are observations in there that are valid even today and in systems of spiritual development, applications are applications that fall within the psychological realm. So at all times we have known not only psychology but perhaps the truth.

Certainly

And yet it seems to have been lost. I don’t know if we are on the way to find it, or if some people have already found it, it seems that our current form of life has lost all sense of truth with a capital V.

Ah yes, if you want, we can say that she lost it, whatever it is inaccurate, there have always been people, who, in the times we have just passed, these people kept themselves hidden for security reasons. I would say in the sense of security, if not to burn them. In this sense we have precisely the esotheric tradition, which simply means hidden. Simply hidden for good security reasons.Knowledge: to say that we do not know for example, it often happens that someone says “but these domains we do not know them”, it is not true, it is not because the majority of the public is not interested in these areas that these areas do not exist, on the one hand and it is not because the majority of the public is not interested that nobody is interested. I mean by this, that there is a certain tendency towards generalization, which nowadays tends to fade little by little, we nevertheless see in the new generations a greater openness, a greater atention, I would even say a greater intuition than it has to be somewhere.

The goal of all sciences of all spiritualities is still the final, the reason why we are here and where we will be afterwards is what it is for personally. I won’t insist if the question bothers you.

No, the question does not bother me, it is a little difficult to express yourself simply for rather important things. In general man does not realize how little his consciousness is developed. Currently he has undergone a fairly rapid intellectual development, one should honestly say too fast, in the sense that between his intellect and his affect there is an increasingly large gap. It follows that we currently have a technological development managed by an elite which is not mature and when I say not mature, it is simply that his affect is not at the level of his intellect, it results, if I compare now with the pollution, a kind of systematic destruction of the earth which is not wanted but which is simply a lack of maturity. We want to do this, we want to do that, we aspire to do it, we are passionate about doing it. It is an emotional need that does not realize other people live, that the planet is limited, that the planet’s resources must be managed with some wisdom all the same, instead of wasting almost systematically.

Sure! There was also a certain degree of immaturity that existed, in the sense that life only felt real, as long as you did something interesting. For example, about technique and where we collected a lot of money to live largely. One of the reasons we can call “the youth revolt” is that young people come with a consciousness, must it be said intuitive or instinctive, that, after all, life is something else. There is a considerable pressure now which is mounting more and more, which tends to want to upset the old order of things, to live a more real life, and the spiritual teachings always teach us to come into contact with a life more true. it is extremely difficult for someone who has this contact, to make understand to someone, who does not have it, that he is practically blind.

So, we have to have contact and contacts not only on our planet but maybe more distant contacts,

There is no need to … I mean, that is also a natural tendency. For example, everything that is planetary. We have it on our planet, but you have to leave the planet for example to go to the solar system, or you have to leave the solar system to go to the galaxy, while it is obvious that the galaxy is there where we are. We are necessarily in the galaxy, and we are necessarily in the solar system.This is reflected psychologically by the tendency to want to leave the personal aspect to go to the impersonal aspects, whereas it is a question of integrating the impersonal aspect in the person and developing the conscious, in order to recognize by taking up the symbolic dimensions of which we have just spoken, to recognize the galactic, the solar is the planetary in the same place, where we are. Because many people develop spiritually to escape the difficulty of so-called material life.

Who for you is into?

It is about one life, there is no separation between spiritual life and material life.

For you it’s a life!

A total life.

There is no spiritual life that continues after physical death?

There is life after physical death. The first thing a person who dies notices is that he is still alive. And what is absolutely strange, is to note that there are periods in humanity when this notion is quite natural and periods when it is no longer the case. It is becoming again.

Do you believe? Do you have religious beliefs?

When I am asked if I have beliefs, I am always embarrassed because I have a certain amount of knowledge, and belief is only the stage which precedes knowledge. And from a practical point of view, or I would say professional,you cannot work with a belief. It is necessary to arrive at a knowledge, the work is done with a knowledge not with a belief.

Men seek spirituality, there is a fashion for hallucinogens.What do you think of these drugs? Does it facilitate the transition to a spirituality?

My first experience in the United States was precisely meeting drug addicts. This is quite a mind-boggling thing, although mind-boggling is not the right word, it’s a disaster, in the sense that many young people believing certain data, given by older people, have become addicted to drugs, hoping to find a way for faster spiritual development.Technically speaking, this is totally wrong, in the sense that it is indeed a way of realizing that we can see the world differently. But technically also what we see belongs to the nature side, and we see it in a certain way which is spiritually harmful, we see it passively, we undergo the thing. There is no mastery in it, there is simply the interest of discovering a different world, that interest is real.

From the point of practice in spiritual development the importance of the positive is considerable. In practice one thing is immediately seen, when someone takes drugs, and that is that the negative polarity increases and the directing positive current tries to disappear, it produces a kind of ceiling at the top of the head which cuts off the directional current.This causes the drug addict to drift away in life, he no longer has the sense of building a life, for example the sense of its importance.

You just said that he discovers a different world and that is not without interest.

He discovers it but cannot do anything with it because he is subjected to it.While in spiritual development you discover it but you discover it like all things that we discover, for example if you see an object you take the object in hand, you can turn it in all directions, you can analyze. A junkie can’t do that. Anyone who has developed spiritually can do it.

So, it is the same world you’re discovering?

We discover I am preparing the same world. This is only one of the aspects. Much more than that the drug addict has access. to what is commonly called the astral world, and still only certain aspects of this astral world, so in fact the discovery is limited. The sensational look comes only from the fact that the color quality is different, and the world is new.But what they discover is a narrow strip of real possibilities.It is not the discovery in itself that scares me, on the contrary, this is actually encouraging. But that’s the damage done. Because if the organism is not very resistant, a single dose of LSD can completely shut you off the access of finer frequencies in the positive planes>.

So, to know about these drug reactions, have you had any experience with drugs?

No, I must say, I never will, the danger is far too great.Positive sensitivity is absolutely necessary in the work we do. Taking drugs would involve a long work, months, if not years, as the case may be, to recover the possibility, so it’s not worth it, it’s too dangerous

So how do you know these… these reactions?

I see them on the individual. There are two things that can be seen very clearly: you see the ceiling, this ceiling appears particularly when working with a current that I call the A current, it is a directional current. As soon as you work with him, if the person has been drugged, something is wrong. So, research why? and it can come either from a lack of development of the person or from drugs. But if it is the lack of development, we find it quickly enough, when there is a progression. If it’s drugs, there is a cap, there really is a dam, you have to find a way to demolish that dam and it’s not easy at all.

Have you had students who took drugs?

I had students who took drugs, they are young people, they are psychologists because for a while psychologists tried drugs to see if maybe it was a workable way.On one of the psychologists, I managed to unlock this ceiling. Which obviously with a welcome result for this person who was frolicking like a kid after the session. It was very fun; but I must say practically it is still a problem for me, because for someone less mature, I do not know how to do it, because with someone who is not mature, we must succeed in breaking through the ceiling, let’s say from bottom to top, for someone who is more mature we can pierce it from top to bottom.

You always talk about the ceiling. Does this position on the top of the head matter?

This is of considerable importance, because on it depends the content of positive polarity, that is, the positive balance in the person. The region may just be dormant, but the potential is alive. In this sense, there is simply a lack of training, perhaps a lack of maturity, but there is no obstacle it is simply a question of practice. But in the case of drug addicts there is a very clear obstacle. It happened to me to see cases where for example the possibility the potential was there, the maturity was there, but there was the barrier.

What surprises me, however, is many peoples, always in the same direction as us, that is to say the spiritual path, many peoples have taken drugs. I am thinking in particular of Indian peyote, for example.

Drugs exist … I believe as far as we look back yes and often we find drugs.

Yes and everyone for the same reason, often to seek a spiritual state.

But you see, there is perhaps a misunderstanding of spiritual mental notion, in the sense that one generally seeks a state for oneself, which one calls spiritual because one feels good there.Spiritual development is fundamentally something else, as well as on a personal level, we have a whole humanity around us, on the spiritual level as entities for example, there is a whole world of entities, we are not alone.And these connections can become absolutely tangible and real, as tangible as in human contact, I would even say more tangible because the contacts are more real and much deeper.

You spoke to me, you gave me strange details, you told me speaking of the astral world of finer color, for example for an aspect for a drug addict. And I apologize. I picked that up in the conversation, I kept that in mind.

Yes, because the colors the eye sees are practically the dullest colors in the solar spectrum. If we can say so. If we go higher, it’s a different picture. If we go an octave higher, we have much purer colors. We can go even higher and we have infinitely more transparent colors. We can go even higher until one point or the other, we are out of color. We only have the energy behind the colors.

And how do you know all this?

By practice

But can these colors be seen with the human eye?

No, that is to say that there are different modes of perception, you have a mode of perception and that is visual. Therefore who uses the eyes to perceive. There is another mode which still physiologically uses the brain centers for decoding of sight, but the perception is by points which are sensitized, and these points are other than the eyes. Let’s say, the eyes are a certain category of sensitized point. There are other categories of sensitized points and apart from that, there could still be a 3rd and 4th category, there are different possible levels of perception, which all can be related to what we know as visual perception.

The strange thing is that at the point where you are, you personally, you don’t keep all of these things to yourself and, on the contrary, you are preparing a work of it. So, I would like us to talk about it a little bit. Why first prepare a book and like that a little democratize this state of thought and these things, these powers almost?

Let’s first look at the question of power, I don’t like the term power very much in the sense that someone who develops a power simply shows that their consciousness is not up to their faculties. So, he tries to show off by his powers instead of showing off by his presence, which is fundamentally different.From a spiritual point of view, because he asserts himself by his powers, he wastes time, he forgets to develop. Then why?Why present a work of this kind? Simply because it meets a need.The world is moving very quickly towards new means of action, it just makes sense to provide new means of action.They are not new, perhaps fundamentally, as long as they are principles to be applied. They are new in their presentation in their form, they are perhaps also new, simply in the sense that one starts from known psychological data and one goes further, and one goes much further. We hear, there is a kind of continuous line between the psylogically already known world, and something that you just don’t know.And it’s not because we don’t know that we can’t go, we just have to pushstep by step a little further, according to certain lines, according to certain principles and we get there very well.  This is one of the characteristics of the time that we are approaching. This is what was “Eso” becomes Exoteric so comes to light what was to hide for security reasons no longer need to hide.I agree with you in that a work of this kind. Not so long ago a few centuries back could have caused catastrophes, because usually their perpetrators ended up at the stake or suffered the torture.This is no longer the case, it goes without saying, one can expose oneself to the contempt of the one who does not understand and that is obvious, well that is not very serious.

Ontology is a new science. You are not referring to old traditions, since as we said, it is true, these traditions have always existed.

What is new simply is that the means used are means which are accessible in the times to come and which were less accessible in the past times, which is new. Now ontology, the term ontology is new. The science of being exists at all times.

Isn’t it dangerous? I know that in your book you indicate methods of getting there, of getting results, is that correct?

That’s right it’s not dangerous, whenever there might be deviations that are dangerous it is indicated, I always say pay attention to this or that.

And a single person who studies your work?

She can work perfectly well, if she could find someone to help her that would be more practical, but obviously at the beginning it is difficult. If she works sincerely and seriously, it requires continuous work and the more continuous and intense it is, the more the result is absolutely tangible.

Are you joining Hindu meditation? I mean concentration to begin with, followed by meditation according to the Hindus?

I should say no, but in fact, it should be said yes, there is no systematic teaching of meditation. But when you do a job, when you do an exercise, there is an intense focus that comes naturally without you putting the label on it.I happen for example, if I ask a class to concentrate for 2 hours, it would not arrive. But it happened to me to do exercises 2 hours in a row in an intense and sustained way, they succeeded.

Yes, concentration is something that we have lost a little bit, we no longer know where we are going to put our car in practice. We no longer know what we did.

And at this point you think that concentration is an amazing faculty and yet the simplest element that allows concentration is simply to have an interest in what you are doing.If you are interested in a book you dive into the book, as you says, and you no longer hear anything, neither the clock nor the telephone or anything. It’s a deep concentration, it seems silly to say.

Mr. Muller you are only in Switzerland temporarily, you will return to the USA. Is this the preferred location for your work? Could you not, here in our country, since you are Swiss yourself, also work and achieve the same results?

Let’s say I have worked in Switzerland for a long time now, and I have students who are still following. This is why I am here precisely to see them.But the work… I am sent to the United States. I have to work there. It is for construction reasons; there are in nature, mainly in the west, there are current intensities and certain currents that do not exist here. I have to work with these currents, and I must say that we get results thanks to these currents which are… difficult to obtain here.

So that’s where you can get the results anyway, to the point where you’re looking.

On an individual level, we can get them here too, that’s obvious. But on the level, I should almost say professional, that is to say on the level of the effectiveness one obtains a greater effectiveness there.

And the United States for you is that what is important there as a discovery, as a civilization?

This will certainly be very important, there is currently a big crisis, there are changes in the air and if we imagine, we get beyond these changes, we can quite predict an extremely precious future, really something new.

And you want to be in it.

Something new yes, it is important spiritually speaking.I mean a bigger life a life included in a much bigger frame.I am here to participate. It’s not the only function I have there, but I’m here to help with that.

Thank you.